Discussion about this post

User's avatar
Gilbert's avatar

Furtermore on Brandmüller:

I have not read the book and realistically won't but he also wrote a 1967 article "Besitzt das konstanzer Dekret Haec Sancta dogmatische Verbindlichkeit?", that is "Does the Constance decree Haec Sancta have dogmatic force?" That is ~20 years before the book and apparently a fairly direct answer to Küng but it says basically what James says Brandmüller says. A German pdf with bad OCR but in the latin/modern Alphapet is available on the Intertubes at https://roemischequartalschrift.digitheo.de/ojs/index.php/rq/article/view/89904, the first article in the volume. This is 17 pages and still in copyright so public translations are right out.

Anyway some key points hastily summarized by an incompetent German guy on the Interet:

1. The decree was not meant to be dogmatic.

1.1 Language wise it avoid docmatic language like "faith", "doctrine", "truth" but uses diciplinary language like "obey" or "punish". Also the decree goes on in undoubtedly disciplinary matters and it would be weird to basically make a dogmatic pronouncement in a side note. The same council did use explicitly dogmatic language elsewhere and so die Basel later when it tried to do the same thing.

1.2 The even if pope language is deliberately hypotetical because at that point they were deliberately not specifying who was really pope.

1.3 Furthermore the even if pope language is a formula also used at the council of Siena (for a secrecy order when the pope wasn't actually there" and a regional synod around that time had similar even if bishop language where that authorithy wasn't in doubt at all. So probably this is just an emphatic yes everybody, not just the unimportant folk.

1.4 The reference to "alterius concilii" is not a reference to just any council but a safeguard because the council was aware their attempt might fail just like the Pisa one and then they would have to try again. That is also whie they they said "alterius" and not "alii".

2. The decree was not understood as dogmatic by the 15th century church.

2.1 Even Basel gave up on its attempt to declare the pope heretic for rejecting Haec Sancta because that wasn't enough to be a heretic.

2.2 The German elector-lords didn't consider Haec Sancta dogmatic or else they couldn't have justified their careful neutrality to Basel

2.3 The papal legates at Siena made big claims about the supreme authority of the pope and that was not recoginzed as heresy.

2.4 The pope could actually govern and later dissolve the council of Siena and in the end even the opposition accepted that.

2.5 At the council of Constance itself the relation between pope and council continued to be hotly debated after Haec Sancta and the very bishops who had approved the decree didn't claim this made anyone a heretic.

3. Even if Martin V. had appoved Haec Sancta he could only have approved the meaning that was meant.

4. Haec Sancta was therefore not a dogmatic declaration but a decree of positive emergency law.

5. Constance could do that because during the crisis it was a "legitimate if susdiary carrier of the supreme eccelesiastical power". This changed when there was a proper pope again and we see this in the changing form of counciliar documents from that time on.

6. Brandmüller doesn't buy the "conciliariter" explanation of how Martin would have excluded Haec Sancta from approbation.

7. But seeing the question as non-disciplinary is anachronistic, Martin wanted to exclude it as not a matter of faith.

8. In fact Martin couldn't have approved Haec Sancta because that would mean it needed approval and then he wouldn't have been pope in the first place.

Expand full comment
Gilbert's avatar

So I looked up what Hefele actually said, my tldr would be basically position b above. Anyway he says it on pp 327-373 in the volume the Archive has at https://archive.org/details/conciliengeschic07hefe/page/372/mode/2up and my translation of that is as follows:

If we at last ask if the council of Constance was a general one or not, then no doubt can obtain that its last four sessions (42-45) in which pope Martin V presided have the dignity of ecomenicity, because in these primacy and episcopacy collaborated harmonically. But how about the previous sessions and their decisions? Above we already saw how pope Martin approbated and ratified, on occasion of the Falkenberg case, those decisions which had been made in materiis fidei [in matters of faith] and conciliariter (by the whole council, not just nationaliter, that is by individual nations). (page 368) But in this he can not have meant to say that he was witholding his approval from A L L other decisions which did not affect Q U E S T I O N S O F F A I T H, for then he would also have withdrawn his approval from the reform decrees of the 39th session (because the do not treat de materiis fidei [of matters of faith]) and he would rather clumsily have pulled the ground under his own feet, for the decrees by which John XXIII and Benecict XIII were deposed and his election was ordered also don't treat de materia fidei [of matters of faith]. In addition, already in his bull of February 22nd, 1418, Martin demanded of everyone recognition that the council of Constance was a general one and that what it decreed in favorem fidei et salutem animarum [for the benefit of the faith and the hail of souls] would have to be held to. (page 347) Hence he also recoginized the generally binding, so ecumenical character of other dercrees than those in materiis fidei[in matters of faith]. But from declaring a completely general approbation he bewared and especially his words in favorem fidei et salutem animarum [for the benefit of the faith and the hail of souls] seem to me to have a r e s t r i c t i n g character. With this he implied that he was excepting some decrees from the approbation but obviously in the interest of peace didn't want to declare himself more clearly. His successor Eugen IV declared himself more specifically in the year 1446, by accepting the whole council and all its decisions absque tamen praejudicio juris, dignitatis et praeeminentiae sedis apostolicae [but without predjudice to the right, dignity and preeminence of the apostolic see] (See Vol. 1 page 54). That he thereby wanted to exclude the Constance decrees of the superiority of general councils over the pope from approbation seems beyond doubt [is "wohl" beyond doubt which has no English analogate but in this context I think is just a ceremonial scientific acknowledgement that the author is fallible und could theoretically be wrong but you wouldn't suggest that now would you]. According to this and according to today's law which declares the papal approbration of all general councils necessary for making them such, it seems to be[again is "wohl"] subject to no doubt that all decisions of Constance which do not constitute a prejudice to the papacy must be regarded as ecumenical, while all those that contravene the jus[right], the dignitas[dignity] or the praeeminentia [preeminance] of the apostolic see are to be considered reprobed.

(About half of that stiltedness is already in the German while the other half is from trying to translate fairly literally)

Expand full comment
17 more comments...

No posts