Discussion about this post

User's avatar
Mike W's avatar

“and one guy in Maryland who voted Adams-Jefferson, just to mess with historians.” 😂 brilliant

Expand full comment
Tarb's avatar

A fairly interesting post. However, I think I have to object to this portion:

"Heck, just look across the pond at Europe right now! They’ve got even more democratic democracies than we do. How’s it working out for ‘em? Not so hot, babes! Every time France is in the news, it’s either because another riot spun out of control, or because the neo-Nazis—not the Trump GOP, which is bad enough, but the actual neo-Nazis—are at serious risk of winning a national election. Same in half-a-dozen other Western European countries. "

I assume the "actual neo-Nazis" are in reference to to the political party National Rally (previously National Front), because I can't think of what else it would be. Now, I'm not an expert on French politics. But I have done a bit of research, and I don't think this is the case. Everything that follows is my understanding of the situation, which could be flawed in some areas, but I think is correct.

So, I definitely remember how in 2017 there was a lot of fearmongering about the fact Marie Le Pen (their candidate) made it into the top 2 of the presidential election. But the claim that "actual neo-Nazis" were in danger of winning a national election (the presidency) doesn't seem quite true.

First, none of them have been at "serious risk" of winning a national election. It is true that National Rally has, on three occasions, managed to get into the "final two" of the presidential election (basically, they have an election where each party runs one candidate, everyone votes for one, and then you get the "real" election between the top two people). But National Rally got walloped each time this happened. In the one-on-one runoff election in 2002, the candidate got a measly 17.7%. The other times their candidate managed to land in the final two was 2017 and 2021, but still only got 33.9% and 41.45% respectively. With vote spreads like that, they weren't in any "serious risk" of winning.

But can National Rally be described as "actual neo-Nazis" to begin with? Apparently they were far more extreme in the past (the original founder, while not necessarily a Holocaust denier, was definitely a Holocaust skeptic), though I'm not sure if they quite rose to the level of being "actual neo-Nazis". But even if they were, of the times their candidate got into the runoff for president, that would apply only to the 2002 election. They did try to start moderating things starting in the 2010's (as part of this, the original founder got kicked out in 2015) and it was only under those circumstances--the expulsion of the extreme elements--that they managed to get into the 2017 and 2022 presidential election runoff, even if both of them ended up being pretty one-sided in favor of the opponent (though they did improve compared to where they were before).

If I look over their current positions, they don't really seem any more extreme than the "Trump GOP", and certainly are not neo-Nazis (well, maybe to those who think the Turmp GOP is a bunch of Neo-Nazis). They have managed to have more electoral success recently; in 2023 they managed to get 15% of the parliament, their best finish by a significant margin. But again, this was AFTER a concerted attempt to kick out the extreme elements of the party.

So it doesn't seem to me like there were ever "actual neo-Nazis" in danger of winning a national election (the presidency) in France. That was just the media trying to hype things up way more than they were, both by exaggerating how extreme a candidate was or their likelihood of success. Maybe National Rally has a real shot in the next presidential election in 2027, but as I noted, if they ever were neo-Nazis, they definitely aren't now.

I don't know what the other half a dozen nations you refer to are, as you only named France. But it's been my experience that when the media tries to sell you on some party or individual in Europe gaining power as being "far-right" it usually means their positions are no more extreme than that of the US Republican Party. See, for example, the Swedish Democrats or Brothers of Italy. The mainstream media spent so much time talking about how absurdly right-wing they were after they gained power by being in the majority, and then I look at their positions and don't see anything that would be out of place among the Republican Party. Maybe that means the Republican Party is far-right (people always do claim the US is more right-wing than most of Europe), but in any event these supposed far-right parties don't seem any worse than one of the dominant parties in the US.

I have some other potential comments, but they may be addressed in the next post, so I'll leave them to the side for now.

Expand full comment
9 more comments...

No posts