This is thorough and reasonable. My initial reaction is that, having just finished the book "Stasiland" by Funder about the work of the DDR's secret police, I am left feeling as many of the East Germans felt: just because things are legal does not make them right, and being arrested in order to protest what is both legal and immoral is, perhaps, the highest call of a patriot. I'd be interested to read your take on how to approach ICE's actions with a "spirit" of the law hot take. I, obviously, believe that though they may toe the letter, they've trashed the spirit. Anyway. Good read! Merry Christmas!
With all due respect, if you think ICE's actions resemble those of the Stasi, you may also be entitled to compensation from your Misinformation Insurance.
Going further, what exactly is immoral about ICE's actions? Is it how they're going about enforcing immigration law? Or is it that immigration laws in general are immoral? Or is it that US immigration law in particular is immoral?
I did not equate ICE to the Stasi. I equated the actions of citizens under the DDR to those of Americans protesting today. In both situations, people are acting upon a personal recognition that what is legal isn't moral.
Mass detention, family separation, and deportation practices that disregard basic humanitarian consideration are immoral because they violate core principles of Catholic social teaching and natural law.
Detention in degrading conditions, lack of adequate medical care, and coercive enforcement tactics are incompatible with respect for human dignity.
Also, the Church explicitly recognizes the right of persons to migrate when they cannot secure the necessities of life in their homeland (CCC §2241). States can regulate borders, but this authority is morally limited (especially when one state has significantlymore resources). Enforcement must be humane, proportionate, and oriented toward the protection of persons, not just territorial control. When ICE actions prioritize deterrence or punishment over human welfare ("cruelty is the point", they exceed moral limits.
The family is the fundamental unit of society in Catholic teaching (CCC §2207). Practices such as family separation or deportation that knowingly fracture families inflict grave moral harm. The Church consistently teaches that the state may not pursue policy goals by directly undermining family integrity. I could share stories of my students not being able to do homework due to deported family members, but I'm sure you can imagine.
I'm a former theology teacher so I operate within that context. Catholic teaching rejects the idea that legality alone confers moral legitimacy. This is the DDR analogy. A state can act legally and still act unjustly. When ICE enforces laws in ways that foreseeably cause grave harm to persons, ignore due process, or violate basic human rights, Catholics are morally obligated to judge those actions as unjust and, therefore, immoral.
That makes more sense; it is still wrong. For example, incarcerating someone for committing a crime knowingly fractures a family and creates instability within households--is it, therefore, illicit under Catholic teaching as you understand it?
Further, I also question whether the people coming here are unable to obtain the basic necessities of life--that is, food and shelter.
It sounds to me as though you believe that immigration laws are in and of themselves illegitimate, or that you believe that if someone is not probably a malefactor that it is immoral to not let them in. Please forgive me if I find this position to be, in the long-term, detrimental to everything you claim to want to uphold.
Deportation isn't focused on reintegration and doesn't allow for family visits.
The notion that people only have a right to migrate in search of basic rights is silly. For example, I've migrated to Germany, even though I could remain in the US if needed.
I do indeed believe that anyone who is not a bad actor has a right to migrate. I think that's the closest we could get to imitating the Kingdom of Heaven, specifically regarding immigration.
And I think it's a good thing you were able to migrate to Germany (and some of my friends were able to legally migrate to America), but I don't believe you (or my friends) had a fundamental right to do so.
Good thing there are systems that work properly to facilitate this, demonstrative of the fact that functional immigration with dignity is not an absurd goal.
Good points throughout. And, in my opinion, I would consider many nails being hit by the same hammer. We are living in unprecedented times of exaggerated claims, as well as exaggerated emotions with a hyperfixation of POV footage that only depicts ONE side of the story. Laws are laws, and I will not stand here and let the law be abused.
I mentioned this in my own little reflection on OLG, as someone who has traveled the immigration system, it is a system RIPE FOR ABUSE. It's easy to lie, easy to cheat and very easy to extend things for major gain.
Heck, even the citizenship process was simpler than what many people go through to adopt a child that was born in the U.S.
With all of that being said.
One thing that does stand out, but not for lack of information, but rather because it escapes the concept of "objective" is that it seems like one of the goals of the administration is to use a certain level of fear tactics to affect the people who reside in this country illegally. Which is not a tactic that I disagree with 100%. The REAL ISSUE is that when you use certain tactics, you also affect the people who have been going through the already harsh and invasive immigration process (though easy to break) and add even more fear into their hearts.
I have felt a need to carry my naturalization certificate (a rather inconveniently large piece of paper) in my person for the JUST IN CASE moment. A moment that has not yet come to pass.
Will ICE ever come to my door looking for me? No, 0% chance of that happening.
Will ICE ever come to my children's school looking for my children? No, 0% chance of that happening.
Will ICE ever detain me if I am in at the wrong place at the wrong time?... I want to say 0%, but I honestly have the fear in my heart, so I have to say. The odds are not 0%.
So, congrats Trump admin. You did strike fear into the heart of ONE immigrant turned U.S. Citizen.
Your post is informative and it helps me with my own fear, but I cannot look at the situation and say "Yup, thats never gonna happen to me" Because the system by which I came here seems flawed by designed. Flawed enough (in my opinion) to say "Maybe I made a mistake and I am not sure, but now I am looking over my shoulder".
This is thorough and reasonable. My initial reaction is that, having just finished the book "Stasiland" by Funder about the work of the DDR's secret police, I am left feeling as many of the East Germans felt: just because things are legal does not make them right, and being arrested in order to protest what is both legal and immoral is, perhaps, the highest call of a patriot. I'd be interested to read your take on how to approach ICE's actions with a "spirit" of the law hot take. I, obviously, believe that though they may toe the letter, they've trashed the spirit. Anyway. Good read! Merry Christmas!
With all due respect, if you think ICE's actions resemble those of the Stasi, you may also be entitled to compensation from your Misinformation Insurance.
Going further, what exactly is immoral about ICE's actions? Is it how they're going about enforcing immigration law? Or is it that immigration laws in general are immoral? Or is it that US immigration law in particular is immoral?
I did not equate ICE to the Stasi. I equated the actions of citizens under the DDR to those of Americans protesting today. In both situations, people are acting upon a personal recognition that what is legal isn't moral.
Mass detention, family separation, and deportation practices that disregard basic humanitarian consideration are immoral because they violate core principles of Catholic social teaching and natural law.
Detention in degrading conditions, lack of adequate medical care, and coercive enforcement tactics are incompatible with respect for human dignity.
Also, the Church explicitly recognizes the right of persons to migrate when they cannot secure the necessities of life in their homeland (CCC §2241). States can regulate borders, but this authority is morally limited (especially when one state has significantlymore resources). Enforcement must be humane, proportionate, and oriented toward the protection of persons, not just territorial control. When ICE actions prioritize deterrence or punishment over human welfare ("cruelty is the point", they exceed moral limits.
The family is the fundamental unit of society in Catholic teaching (CCC §2207). Practices such as family separation or deportation that knowingly fracture families inflict grave moral harm. The Church consistently teaches that the state may not pursue policy goals by directly undermining family integrity. I could share stories of my students not being able to do homework due to deported family members, but I'm sure you can imagine.
I'm a former theology teacher so I operate within that context. Catholic teaching rejects the idea that legality alone confers moral legitimacy. This is the DDR analogy. A state can act legally and still act unjustly. When ICE enforces laws in ways that foreseeably cause grave harm to persons, ignore due process, or violate basic human rights, Catholics are morally obligated to judge those actions as unjust and, therefore, immoral.
That makes more sense; it is still wrong. For example, incarcerating someone for committing a crime knowingly fractures a family and creates instability within households--is it, therefore, illicit under Catholic teaching as you understand it?
Further, I also question whether the people coming here are unable to obtain the basic necessities of life--that is, food and shelter.
It sounds to me as though you believe that immigration laws are in and of themselves illegitimate, or that you believe that if someone is not probably a malefactor that it is immoral to not let them in. Please forgive me if I find this position to be, in the long-term, detrimental to everything you claim to want to uphold.
Deportation isn't focused on reintegration and doesn't allow for family visits.
The notion that people only have a right to migrate in search of basic rights is silly. For example, I've migrated to Germany, even though I could remain in the US if needed.
I do indeed believe that anyone who is not a bad actor has a right to migrate. I think that's the closest we could get to imitating the Kingdom of Heaven, specifically regarding immigration.
Right, utopianism and a refusal to acknowledge unintended consequences it is then.
That's a lazy response. If we can't articulate how things *should* be, we can't build policy that gets us closer to it.
And I think it's a good thing you were able to migrate to Germany (and some of my friends were able to legally migrate to America), but I don't believe you (or my friends) had a fundamental right to do so.
Good thing there are systems that work properly to facilitate this, demonstrative of the fact that functional immigration with dignity is not an absurd goal.
Good points throughout. And, in my opinion, I would consider many nails being hit by the same hammer. We are living in unprecedented times of exaggerated claims, as well as exaggerated emotions with a hyperfixation of POV footage that only depicts ONE side of the story. Laws are laws, and I will not stand here and let the law be abused.
I mentioned this in my own little reflection on OLG, as someone who has traveled the immigration system, it is a system RIPE FOR ABUSE. It's easy to lie, easy to cheat and very easy to extend things for major gain.
Heck, even the citizenship process was simpler than what many people go through to adopt a child that was born in the U.S.
With all of that being said.
One thing that does stand out, but not for lack of information, but rather because it escapes the concept of "objective" is that it seems like one of the goals of the administration is to use a certain level of fear tactics to affect the people who reside in this country illegally. Which is not a tactic that I disagree with 100%. The REAL ISSUE is that when you use certain tactics, you also affect the people who have been going through the already harsh and invasive immigration process (though easy to break) and add even more fear into their hearts.
I have felt a need to carry my naturalization certificate (a rather inconveniently large piece of paper) in my person for the JUST IN CASE moment. A moment that has not yet come to pass.
Will ICE ever come to my door looking for me? No, 0% chance of that happening.
Will ICE ever come to my children's school looking for my children? No, 0% chance of that happening.
Will ICE ever detain me if I am in at the wrong place at the wrong time?... I want to say 0%, but I honestly have the fear in my heart, so I have to say. The odds are not 0%.
So, congrats Trump admin. You did strike fear into the heart of ONE immigrant turned U.S. Citizen.
Your post is informative and it helps me with my own fear, but I cannot look at the situation and say "Yup, thats never gonna happen to me" Because the system by which I came here seems flawed by designed. Flawed enough (in my opinion) to say "Maybe I made a mistake and I am not sure, but now I am looking over my shoulder".
I agree with Mauricio’s analysis.